Countering mass destroyers with orc

Ok, as I quickly discovered through FFL's advice, mass destroyers is a pain in the ass to deal with when you're playing as orc. Note that I'm the UD player. Typically, the most used counter is to use bats against the demos, but that has been shown to not be as effective. So, that leaves three other options.

1. Mass wyverns (no good)

2. Mass Zerkers (no one uses zerkers, so this is rarely seen)

3. Use raiders in conjunction with something else.

I'm mostly concerned with Zerkers. How would they compare to mass destroyers? They're easy to mass, their damage isn't bad for their cost. They're just relatively easy to kill. Raiders & co. would be a little difficult to pull off, I would think.|||Zerkers get owned by AoE - Lich, CL, and Dreadlord come to mind.

Either way, the goal is not to counter destroyers, it is to prevent them from existing. Orcs get Wyverns at tier 2, and then they'll start massing them. He'll harass your workers and FF your hero, and they'll outnumber your fiends, etc. etc.|||true thing BW - dont counter them but try to avoid him from massing destros... anyway, i cant think of a proper counter; i hate destros|||In one of my earlier games coming back i actually got zerker trolls to counter destroyers. I still lost but it was due to him having 2 expo's and me not being able to hold one. I also had a level 3 Endurance Aura to go with them. It wasnt the destroyers that beat me, it was the whole not being able to have an expo.

Ouchies|||The thing with orc is you have to anticipate it. Watch grubby, even before he's scouted the ud, he starts massing bats. If you can get into a fight and try to win before he gets MASS destroyers then bats alone will do. However, if he does, you have to have a mix of wyverns/bats/raiders. get an expo and 2nd beastary at the same time, somewhere in t2.

With orc its best not to let him get to mass destros b/c, yes, its really hard to beat with orc. Better you try to take him head on (no in t1, you'll get fuked by ghoul surround or fiends/coil) but in early t2, when TC and first raider pops out. Early t2, orc has a huge advantage over ud. ;o|||Zerkers suck. They dont do much dmg, pwnt by AoE (Lich ).

As UD I dont mind someone taking raiders at t2. ghoul > raiders. But y, Orc has an huge advantage at t2. And y, anticipate, I remember Rotterdam taking 4 beastiaries, before the ud-opponent reached t3. The UD-beaters come from the beastiaries anyway. Take expo at t2, DK + ghouls cant prevent the expo.|||orc can easily expand at tier2, and with a superior income you should easily be able to outmass the dests with wyverns.|||Zerkers do excellent damage while zerking, what are you talking about?|||aye, ensnare + zerkers focus fire should also work|||Quote:








ghoul > raiders




Doesn't matter. I think most orc players go FS/TC against ud to take care of the ghoul problem.|||Bassically what your gunna want to do in orc vs undead is creep to lvl 2 far seer, push his acolytes with a few grunts and your wolfs/chain lightning, then speed scroll out, take your tc and your grunts and go expand, drop 2 beastiaries and mass the **** out of wyverns.

You wont be able to counter dests without the expo, but since most uds fast tech to teir 3 they will have a hard time taking it down. eventually youll want to tech to teir 3 for the tower upgrade and an SH with heal, since lvl 2 heal bassically counters nova and helps vs hero focus.

edit: blademaster works better on big maps like LT or GW, i think. but its preference. with blade you want to do bassically the same thing, adding hex for hero focus.

second edit: zerkers get assraped by impale/nova/orb splash. a good undead will just hit/run them and keep their numbers thin. Impale really hurts when you can hit a dozen of them at a time, and that stun is long enough for ud heros to fire off spells and back off again.|||Whille Wilikeh's points makes a ton of sence, especially with high-end replays in mind. I still firmly beleave Zerkers to be a viable counter to destros, ateast at a low-mid level of play (witch is where most of us are at!) ... getting zerkers is very different from not getting them though, and you have to adapt you early - mid game to be able to keep the zerkers safe enought in the lategame aka getting lv2 stomp asap, and other methods of hampering hero nuke/hitnruning or melee swarming; hex and stomp can be plenty to prevent hitnruns. (i actually get PL for howl alot too, tho that doenst make sence vs destros, but lv2+ cleave +orb&dmg items can be thx)

(about the heroes & earlygame, i have had to let go of TC first vs all races cept UD; i can still preform a decent harass with 3-4 grunts, pillage on a zig or shop, stomp and mb kill some repairing acos / ghouls and speed-scroll out without losses.)

Zerkers, (and hh's!) are fragile in the field while creeping though. so one as to be a bit carefull. sentrywards helps. (and for me, WD's usually proove usefull lategame too; not all wards get consumed and healwards helps vs the area dmg.. sentrywards can prevent shades in defensive positions to help bring up statis-trap + army guarded expo)

bottom line; Relying on HH's /zerkers for Anti air in a solo game required a playstyle very different from the mainstream to be remotely safe & effective. kind of similar to caster usage for undeads actually, and maybe non-AM-first for humans...

Peace.