(Guide assumes you have the basic micro and macro)
To start off, lets give you a build order for fiends first.
1. All acos to mine, queue 2 more, rally to mine.
2. Pull aco off from mine to summon crypt.
3. Summon graveyard (220 gold mark) [please place them NEAR trees, the newer players amongst you].
4. Summon zig (150 gold mark).
5. Summon altar (180 gold mark).
6. When crypt finish... order 1 or 2 ghouls. (This is where the BO could change depending on match up and map. On map like Twisted Meadows where wood is nice and close, and graveyard has a nice position to be placed, 2 wood ghouls is enough until tier 2, otherwise 3 ghouls).
7. Once you ordered your 1 or 2 ghouls, build a zig (150 gold mark).
8. This is also variable... the shop. At 130 gold mark, build the shop (try to pre-arrange space so your shop is inside your base). Usually if I go 3 ghoul build I skip the shop (I'll explain later).
9. At around 210 gold mark, your altar should finish, and also at the same type, buy your first fiend.
10. If you want to add a nerubian tower, this is the time to do it (100 gold mark). By the time it's done usually it's just around when an harasser hero comes on most maps. If you skip tower, I would use the money to buy an Aco to scout instead. Scouting can be done with 3rd ghoul (if 3 ghoul build) or Aco, or skellys later on. Usually if you go fiend build anyway and scouted an fast expo.. nothing you can do, so might as well not scout early.
11. Order your second fiend at 215 gold mark.
After practice, your DK and second fiend should come out at the same time. Buy skelly rod from shop (if you did make one), then go creeping, or defending in the case of harass. Usually I don�t bother with pre-summoning at graveyard.
With a 2 ghoul build, you can get 4 fiends before teching, that is at 26/30 food. If it is a 3 ghoul build, then I�d tech at 25/30 food, but you would only have 3 fiends for quite a while. After teching, first thing is to remember to buy your 3rd zig. Then more fiends to fill up the remaining food, and you should have enough to do a damage upgrade too.
Meanwhile once you got lvl 2 DK, you should be creeping more, or harassing, depends what you find out from scouting with skellys. Keep building fiends during the tech until you get to 35/40 food (2 ghoul build), or 34/40 (3 ghoul build). It is also advisable to build a zig before tech finishes to get the food up to 50 (it could be done once tech is finished, but it would delay things a bit). Obviously, once you hit tier 2, first thing you�d do is buy a lich (or any other hero you prefer?). If you had a 2 ghoul build, this is the time you add your 3rd ghoul (before or after researching burrow, depending on your state, i.e. if fiends are all on orange, I�d do burrow first). When resources are available, build slaughter house and shop if you skipped shop in tier 1. Once you built your 2 balanced Statues, obviously one on mana, one on HP, your food should be at 48/50, and your army should consist of 2 heroes, 7 fiends, 2 statues, 3 wood ghouls. This point is what I called the best point of the game. When played correctly, this is all you need to end the game, obviously dependent on the skill of your enemy. But try to keep yourself in No Upkeep as long as you can, this is the point when I�d do my tier 3 tech, while expoing, and running around the map with the army. During tier 3 tech, drop down a few zigs, as you would probably have quite a lot of gold. Keep this gold for items and later tier 3 usage.
Basic micro for a DK fiend army:
When creeping, please do not tank with DK for the whole duration, because running around with a yellow/red DK isn�t a good practice. You either tank with skellies, or you dance between fiends and DK. It depends on creep camp really, basically I�d prefer to let fiends tank the piercing damage, and DK + skellys to tank the normal damage, or in the case of no skellys, you�d just have to keep dancing fiends and DK to alternate fire, i.e. spread out damage. Sometimes you would let one fiend take all the damage, then coil to heal, but it is better to save mana for more important usage later on. If you don�t know already, some basic creep behaviour is:
1. Ranged creeps attack the one who wake him up first.
2. Most melee creeps attack the ones closest to them. Some tend to target the lower hp ones though, for example the big turtle in the middle of turtle rock.
3. If creeps ensnares a unit, they would change focus to another unit in general.
4. Summons tend to be targeted first.
5. Creeps with purge don�t purge summons with less than 300hp.
6. High level creeps tend to focus on wounded units too.
In encounters with enemy, again obviously do not let DK take all the damage. I see many people thinking their lvl 2 DK is invincible or something and let him sit in front of 4 grunts 2 wolves to tank. DON�T! Let him take a few hits, while you fire a few rounds from fiends, drag him back behind your fiends, usually this results in enemy attacking one or more of your fiends, then you would start moving your whole army back. Rinse + repeat until you either can�t handle anymore due to low HP or enemy is dead/ran away. Use alt key a lot if you haven�t already, it is the key to play WC3.
Target acquisition is important. With a fiend army, there are priorities. Wounded units are first priorities (especially in the red hp bar�), even orange to yellow HP is worth hitting first. Heroes under 50% hp comes on top of the hit list. Next on the list is armour type�. Unarmoured and light armoured stuff you should focus first� if that�s not obvious already to some of you. Obviously, if there�s a 50% hp unarmoured unit and a 50% hp heavy armoured unit, you�d kill the unarmoured one first. Third on the list is high damage units, or units that cause you most trouble, i.e. dryads or raiders. There is an example I�d like to discuss with you. If you are vs Grunt Raiders FS TC for example, all on full HP, now who would you hit first? There�s 2 sides to this. First you hit the raiders, because dead raiders = no ensnare = hit and run, however them being light armoured makes them tank pretty well vs fiends. Other argument is, focus on grunts because they are the ones doing the damage, once all damage dealers are dead� ensnared units = so what? In real game, I do a bit of both, usually wolves are first on the list due to easy to kill + high damage. But there is no definite answer to this case, as it depends on number of grunts and raiders, your hero levels and position on map. Another example is, you are vs ghoul gargs, you webbed the gargs, who would you aim first? My answer to this is � definitely ghouls, because they are doing the real damage, and they are probably just as easy to kill. This comes with practice and experience, as there are infinite examples, so I�d let you discover the rest.
Keeping your fiends alive:
You have 3 ways; Coil, burrow, run. OK, so you are in battle, and you see your fiend being focus, please instinctively (this will come into habit after awhile), select your fiend, and press B for burrow. Either that, or coil your fiend, or do both in some cases so it can come back to join the battle straight away while dragging the focus away. When you have healing statues, you would want to have damage spread out to all your fiends so statues come into max efficiency, so to achieve this, vs a melee army, just keep dragging individual fiends (those being focused by 2-4 units) about 1 inch back, or some cases, �burrow dancing�, i.e. one goes down, another comes up. Vs ranged� well if someone is half decent, they wouldn�t attack move with ranged units, so they�d be focusing their ass off on something� which is good, because range focus tends to take long enough for you to react to coil the target, or burrow it (melee focus tends to be pretty quick for you to react). There are a few occasions where you don�t use burrow. First, if enemy has dust or sentry ward, please don�t even bother with burrowing, they�d be just sitting ducks. Second, while you are TPing away, DO NOT BURROW, they don�t come with you, and it�d be free exp for enemy while he walks away to get dust� or scan you with Goblin Lab.
Let�s get on with some specifics here, I�m bored with the general stuff! Map specifics and match ups (will be added throughout, I do not have time to write for every match up at the moment).|||Solo � Twisted Meadows
This map is by far my favourite. Wood is nice on all spawns, and every spawn there�s a pretty good spot to put your graveyard, so 2 ghoul build in most cases. (Top left spawn, place graveyard to the right of Necropolis, Top right spawn place yard above Necropolis, bottom left place yard below necropolis, and bottom right place yard right of necropolis). Creeping order is typically always the first 2 sets of gnolls outside your base. Depending on match up and spawn, you either go harass, or look for enemy creeping, or creep the Goblin shops with 4 fiends and skellys, or the expo (set of ogres + trolls). Obviously this doesn�t apply if enemy rushes you or keep bothering you with stalking heroes.
Gathering where enemy is from creep bodies:
On TM I get called map hacker a lot just because I creep jack often. This is done by looking at dead creep bodies at enemy areas. Say you�ve crept your own 2 sets of gnolls, turned lvl 2, and approach enemy�s side of the map, and you notice the pile of bodies still fresh (larger and bolder corpses) at the gnoll camps. If he hasn�t come to you (if he has you would�ve met him�), he�s either healing in base, or creeping the next set, which is USUALLY the expo spot (for the case of top right spawn, it�s the top middle one, top left spawn = middle left one etc). Different race tends to be creeping differently; NE could well be creeping the Goblin shop, same for a fiending UD, while orc and Hu tends to avoid the shop til later on due to mass piercing vs grunts and foots = not good. Orc and Hu might decide to creep the other spawn�s gnolls. If you walk over to his expo spot and he hasn�t crept it, then you do it, don�t waste time running around searching for him, the worse it can happen is you arrive just after he finish, and hes gone to another camp, and you fall back in level a lot like this.
Vs Humans
Humans don�t tech to harass you at start, so you can skip nerub tower, thus having an aco scout, and you can be set with 2 ghouls on wood.
On this map, Humans I play on Northrend don�t tend to fast expo, because the expo is quite far away and creep is quite strong, so it is a huge risk for them. They�ll either speed creep the goblin lab with militia, WE and foots, or creep the gnolls normally. Either way, with this late altar fiend build, you wouldn�t even be able to stop, so don�t even bother. Unless they rush you, don�t go touch them before level 2 DK. There is the possibility the Hu is doing something other than typical AM foots, such as Pally rifles, MK rifles� if that�s the case, then he would be in a similar situation as you, so whatever you are doing, he is probably doing the same on the other side of the map. When you have a lvl 2 DK, you should press on to find the Human. With the aco scout you should have seen roughly what�s he up to� if he really fast expoed, as you walk you aco around, then out to the green camps, if the green camps are still up, he�s quite likely to be fast expoing. Recall how many wood peons you saw in his base during scouting, not many = speed creeping Goblin lab OR fast expoing. Walk that aco around his area, then suicide it later. Some general information you can get from a Human base:
1. If he has a blacksmith already, he�s done a rifle build.
2. If he has mass towers, he�s laming, he�s teching to tanks or something.
3. If dual rax AND smith, during tier 1, he�s fast expoed, and it�s up and running� you should panic.
Usually the state of the townhall gives a good indication what he�s done� fast expo usually implies later tech.
So what you gonna do if he fast expoed? First thing is you must check it out� see if its towered up nicely. If not, proceed to kill peons, if yes, it�s best to avoid, unless it�s just 1 or 2 towers, then try trashing them or forcing a TP from him. If it�s the other situation, and you can�t do anything, just fall back, check his main, usually that�s less defended. Harass until he shows up, then kick some foots (should have 1 or 2 red/orange foots after creeping). Killing off a shop from a human is always a good thing as without regen scrolls, he�d have a lot of damaged foots for you to own.
Whatever a human throws at you, you can pretty much have a strategy in mind� Mass dest + fiends and tri hero (DK Lich CL). Most humans expect it anyway but it cant really be countered without an expo, or a really crept up MK. Possible things Human would make� AM MK rifle casters breakers, AM MK Pally rifles casters + work shop stuff (with expo usually), knights with some form of AA (hawks/tanks/gyros?), or pure mass air (gryphs hawks) with tri hero. Well� to counter all of that, just make fiends and dests, and hit and run. In battle, if he hasn�t got a pally, focus AM first (unless he�s really far back), otherwise, pick on melee units if any, mortars, casters. If he has a pally and is on low level (less than 3 that means), nuke it, obviously if he�s lvl 2 he would divine shield, nuke again when that wears out. If your dests are being chased by say.. more than 12 gyros, run dests back, web as many as u can, then bring dest back to hit and run gyros (with mana dests should be killing gyros in 1 volley). Watch your DK, as it is the primary target for Human, because UD army without DK are just ducks. Do not ever sit a less than 500hp DK in front of a lvl 3 MK with mana because you will die, or at least very close if you don�t TP quick enough. Make sure you check mana on MK and pally often.
If you are unlucky enough to face mass human air supported by expo, and tri hero (AM MK pally, or MK pally BM), then I can say you pretty much lost. Your last hope is a well crept DK Lich and many many dest (less fiends in this case), you should be carrying a lot of pots on your heroes because if you are not careful, one Human nuke and your DK or lich is dead (CL to a lesser extent because you can still react fast enough to coil him, while Lich just dies). Dest + nova is the key to beat Hu mass air.
If you are vs mass tanks harassing� there�s really not much you can do, but have a few nerub towers, and 3+ wagons supporting behind your base, and you�d have to save your base every time he comes. After you defended one push, you must counter quickly, definitely kill any expos if any, and try to kill workshops� usually not possible. Well crept heroes + expo in less obvious areas is the key to this.
I think that�s enough on human, other match ups on this map come later (I�d be busy in 3 days time, so follow up might come 2 weeks later).
P.S. I�m not really familiar with the newer maps since recent patches, especially 2v2 and bigger teams, therefore detailed info like above would probably be written for solo maps such as LT and Gnoll Wood.. and the match up details is pretty much the same, but I will summarize certain characteristics of each race on each map, so take the Twisted Meadows match up info as the most detailed, and applys in general too.
P.P.S. I wrote this at 3am :), so some parts might not make sense, haven't re-read it, or some parts lack details. Got any specific questions just ask here. (You can post here I guess... since followups will come a lot later).|||Well, though I already told you @ b.net, as noone is saying anything here, I'll say again that it's a good guide, fun to read, informative (with correct information, not like most "help with ud strat" threads), etc. Should be banged into the "Mass Guides" thread. Looking forward to the next part, if it'll come some time. Peace. :)|||Wicked Sweet. UD is not my strong point but this has totally helped my UD abilities and
now i don't restart the mission when playing random against the comp. and i get UD.
B2|||Addressing 2 or 3 ghouls on wood, shop or no shop?
OK, as I said I'll address this in earlier post, here's my explanation. Because most solo maps your wood source is pretty good (close up, thick and condensed), 2 ghouls is enough at the start to supply all your wood demands. My 2 ghoul build tends to be used for vs Human, NE and UD, especially in UD mirror because 2 ghoul build always includes a shop, therefore, skelly rod, which is a good creeping tool, and in UD mirror, vs ghouls or fiends, it is a vital item you must have, not only to tank and deal damage, but to keep your DK healthy during creeping.
Vs Orc, I tend to do 3 ghoul build on ALL maps, because with orcs, the aim of the game seems to be get to tier 3 as soon as possible to get dest, therefore wood demand is large as you want to speed up the tiers, i.e. possibly as soon as reaching tier 2, you immediately tech to tier 3. Because in my times most orcs tends to rush you with FS grunts or something similar, I find it that a skelly rod is not necessary as it becomes free exp as well as not lasting that long vs wolves and grunts. Skelly rod in UD vs orc is mainly a creeping tool, but from my experience I rarely have the chance to creep for first 5 minutes, and after that, a skelly rod isn't really necessary as you would have enough fiends to creep most orange camps.
As I mentioned, there is the variation in the BO where you can have 3 ghouls AND the shop, however I prefer not to do this personally as it delays your second fiend quite a bit. HOWEVER, on a map where the wood isn't as good (e.g. 12 o'clock spawn on Gnoll Wood), and the match up requires the shop (i.e. UD mirror), then you would do this variation of the BO. Also I find it when playing against humans skelly rod is also an essential item to aid you to speed creep to gain level on DK (thus nuking those orange foots walking around), as well as harassing, especially if the Human fast expoed. And if human goes for defended foots (its rare... and not really effective), before your lich comes out, skeletons and the DK are your only good source of damage vs defended foots.
Vs NE, if they go archers, again, obviously skeletons are a huge bonus to your army, therefore, shop is also quite essential in this match up.
I hope this clear things up a bit on why I have 2 or 3 wood ghouls or shop/no shop.|||
Uber job on the guide so far, however can you post some of your replays on the fiends strategy? I would really appreciate that.
Thanks.|||I already had that in mind, but since I'm going back to uni 2moro (and then exam for a week)... i wont be able to play new games to show, however I'll try to find some solos of myself in this patch...|||Here's a UD mirror I quickly played just to show some features. Map was Twisted Meadows (perfect!) and I spawned top right vs a lvl 34 UD on top left... He did lich ghouls rush while I did my usual DK fiends. The BO actually changed a bit due to the rush. He killed one of my wood ghouls and I did 2 ghoul build (one of the big problems with this build is a rush like this), therefore I had to fix the situation by buy 2 more ghouls (so 3 wood ghouls) in order to catch up the missing wood to carry on tech. Learn to adapt is the key! Don't fix yourself to one thing, if something unexpected happens like this, you gotta adapt. Anyway it delayed my tech quite a bit, so instead of stop getting fiends normally at 35/40, (or 34/40 in 3 ghouls case), I got it up to 37/40 while building a the extra zig to get the food to 50. Anyway from Tier 2 onwards it was pretty much the same, but I ended game at tier 2 once my Lich came out...
Edit: Oh, note creeping pattern after I defended the rush. That's pretty standard if you spawn near the shop on TM. Also after creeping the shop, instead of going pass middle to goto his creeping places, I went to his base via the upper map, just because I dun want him to come harass my mine with Lich ghouls or something, so if I took that route I could see him coming.|||is dests at tier 3? because then the Hu player with an expo is unbeatable..
well not TOTALLY, but you get the pic
|||The Destroyer Upgrade comes at tier 3, but you can start building statues at Tier 2, so you mass them while teching, do one upgrade when you hit tier 3 and voila, you have your dessies.|||dessies suck.HH > dessies. period.
:P|||Hey mw, can you convince wal to do an orc guide? :P|||Quote:
Should be banged into the "Mass Guides" thread.
Like the announcement says, if he wants it added he just has to send me the complete version of it via email or pm :/
And yes, I do think it should be added. :P I'll wait for a while incase he adds anything however. (That's why letting them give me a finished version is better).|||Ye i'll send it over when I finish it... Im currently busy studying for my 7 exams coming up in nxt 5 days :<, so wait a while ^_^|||MW - I know the feeling :P I have 2 weeks of exams starting in 2 weeks :/|||n1 mw20 :))|||I jizzed in my pants after reading this.|||finished exams, woot!
I'll get writing soon, gimme a day or 2 break|||Nice...hints.
I do, though, start constructing a crypt before qeueing the 2 acos.|||Hi twisted.|||hay
any news?|||Dunno, nothing that'll have you dancing on the roof. A few better players have become slightly more active again though, which is thx.|||Who are more active? tehscrooj and rexxxar?
Quote:
Dunno, nothing that'll have you dancing on the roof.
Nothing would bring me to such state...
Except, maybe, a particular "I'm sorry", not sarcastic, coming from ffl...
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