hi all, i play ft solo on battlenet using NE most of the time. Till now, one of my least favourable matchups is against UD due to 2 problems i face most of the time.
First off, i find it extremely hard to crack into an UD base throughout the game. Even in 1st tier, when i have hunts and archers, his towers are more than enough to daunt me and scare me such that i put off assaulting his base till later, which allows him to regroups and rebuild his army. furthermore, i am not sure on how to attack an ud base. Which structures do i go for first? how should i attack his base? using what units? hope you guys can help me here!
even in 2nd or 3rd tier, i also hold off attacking his base till i have MGs. in 3rd tier, his base defence is even stronger, with frost attacks and high dmg from his spirit towers. sometimes it also costs me the game putting off an assault to his main fortified base.
Another problem i face while playing against UD is when i encounter an army of aboms and gargs? i cant seem to be able to stand against such an army. could anyone help me?help and advice is greatly appreciated|||Yeah, the Undead base is not a place where you want to battle. If the Undead resides(?) to base-camping, try to gain mapcontrol by expanding and out-creeping your opponent. Try to place some wisps around the map so you'll know when he leaves his base and in which direction. With a superior army and/or higher level heroes (preferrably DH/Panda?) try to engage him in open field or at least make him waste a TP scroll. Sometimes you'll just have to be patient.|||Zigs first.
in battle go for the fiends, let the dk loose his mana. Dryad/bears works well vs ud. Hippo�s when destros pop up. dh panda is fine, but warden is also quite effective vs ud.|||right thanks guys, those have been great advice.is rushing good against undead if im NE, granted that my micro and game skills are good from much practice. thing is , is the nature of attacking an Ud base at tier 1 feasible?|||Okay.
No offense, but some really crap suggestions in here.
1) Yes, you can effectively hold a fight AT their base. Nightelves have RANGED SIEGE UNITS at TIER 1. That is insane, and allows you to play tower tag with them before they have an army that can stand up to your hunts in the field.
2) No, do not try to expand and play around the map as if you own it just because they're turtling. That is how I win all my victories. While you think you have a brand spanking new expo about to earn you some grand wealth, my shade has informed me that you had an expansion in the works before you even finished building the Tree of Life. My other shade who is following your army will tell me the most opportune time to bring my army out and slam the door shut on your expo, and then I'll run right back to my base again. Don't try to expo again at a different gold mine. My expo shade is patrolling every gold mine on the map. You will be found no matter what.
3) Do not target Fiends first. Target CASTERS first. Fiends I couldn't give less of a crap about. I don't use them for damage, I use them for web! My Frost Wyrms do the damage. My Skeletal Minions do the damage. My fiends just bring fliers to the ground so I don't have to research skeletal mages.
4) Speaking of Fiends, do NOT use hippos. They will be idling for most of the fight while I laugh and laugh and laugh at their webbed attempt to attack my air.
In tier one, you can rush with hunts (not archers, just go clear hunts; it's not like I'm going to have any air in tier 1) and glaive throwers. No tier 1 force can stand up to a fair number of hunts out of tower fire, and glaives give you that opportunity to bypass tower fire while ripping the base apart.
After tier one, get dryads. Dryads are the number one queens of warcraft 3 imbalance. Magic immunity, fast movement speed, ranged attacks, slow poison, dispel, 145 gold cost so they can be massed easily, bleh bleh bleh. What to use with the dryads? I don't care. The more dryads you use, the worse shape I'm in. At that point you don't even have to worry about frost wyrms at all and you can target the casters first, then the fiends, then whatever. And since they're ranged, you can focus fire. If skellies or anything else DO pop up, dispel them.
Maybe use a couple Talons with dryads? Cyclone the enemies you don't want to deal with while you focus fire the remaining enemies? Bears are nice meatshields and all but wyrms will tear into them and so will destros. Also bears are very expensive. There's always an easier, less expensive way.|||Yeah bears suck.
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Okay.
No offense, but some really crap suggestions in here.
1) Yes, you can effectively hold a fight AT their base. Nightelves have RANGED SIEGE UNITS at TIER 1. That is insane, and allows you to play tower tag with them before they have an army that can stand up to your hunts in the field.
2) No, do not try to expand and play around the map as if you own it just because they're turtling. That is how I win all my victories. While you think you have a brand spanking new expo about to earn you some grand wealth, my shade has informed me that you had an expansion in the works before you even finished building the Tree of Life. My other shade who is following your army will tell me the most opportune time to bring my army out and slam the door shut on your expo, and then I'll run right back to my base again. Don't try to expo again at a different gold mine. My expo shade is patrolling every gold mine on the map. You will be found no matter what.
3) Do not target Fiends first. Target CASTERS first. Fiends I couldn't give less of a crap about. I don't use them for damage, I use them for web! My Frost Wyrms do the damage. My Skeletal Minions do the damage. My fiends just bring fliers to the ground so I don't have to research skeletal mages.
4) Speaking of Fiends, do NOT use hippos. They will be idling for most of the fight while I laugh and laugh and laugh at their webbed attempt to attack my air.
In tier one, you can rush with hunts (not archers, just go clear hunts; it's not like I'm going to have any air in tier 1) and glaive throwers. No tier 1 force can stand up to a fair number of hunts out of tower fire, and glaives give you that opportunity to bypass tower fire while ripping the base apart.
After tier one, get dryads. Dryads are the number one queens of warcraft 3 imbalance. Magic immunity, fast movement speed, ranged attacks, slow poison, dispel, 145 gold cost so they can be massed easily, bleh bleh bleh. What to use with the dryads? I don't care. The more dryads you use, the worse shape I'm in. At that point you don't even have to worry about frost wyrms at all and you can target the casters first, then the fiends, then whatever. And since they're ranged, you can focus fire. If skellies or anything else DO pop up, dispel them.
Maybe use a couple Talons with dryads? Cyclone the enemies you don't want to deal with while you focus fire the remaining enemies? Bears are nice meatshields and all but wyrms will tear into them and so will destros. Also bears are very expensive. There's always an easier, less expensive way.
ZOMG.
WTF are you talking about?
A good NE player will NEVER let you get Frosties.
Bears are expensive? Are you out of your mind? I guess im gold hacking then when im able to pump out bears and dryads from 2 AoLs.
Your opponents suck if they leave you alone when they are trying to set up an expo and they will be trying to push you back into your base.
WTF are you talking about fiends not doing any damage? Fiends > Huntresses due to them being unarmored so **** about the UD not havin an army by the time your weak, slow glaives come about which get pwned by fiends or ghouls anyways.|||Bears are generally powerful units, but they're also:
1) Generally expensive
2) Generally sporting Heavy type armor, which recieves 200% damage from magic type attacks, which are launched from Frost Wyrms and Destroyers
3) Generally using the Roar ability at during combat, which can be consumed by destroyers, giving the destroyers greater power with which to strike at the bears, and negating the buff
I wasn't entirely serious about the Talons suggestion. I was making a point about the Dryads. Cyclone can be dispelled, after all, which would make it ineffective against Destroyers.|||1. Bears are not expensive
2. You have bears + dryads b4 the opponet has destros unless he does a quick destro tech but then he wouldn't have a ground army and his heroes would get pwned.
3. Again, Dryads > Frosties, Dryads > Destros and a good opponent wouldn't let you get frosties anyways as they would push at tier 3 while you will still be at tier 2.|||Quote:
ZOMG.
WTF are you talking about?
A good NE player will NEVER let you get Frosties.
Bears are expensive? Are you out of your mind? I guess im gold hacking then when im able to pump out bears and dryads from 2 AoLs.
Your opponents suck if they leave you alone when they are trying to set up an expo and they will be trying to push you back into your base.
WTF are you talking about fiends not doing any damage? Fiends > Huntresses due to them being unarmored so **** about the UD not havin an army by the time your weak, slow glaives come about which get pwned by fiends or ghouls anyways.
A good ANY player will not let me get Frosties. I struggle to tech to them. My opponents try to push me all the time. That's why I've adapted a build order that incorporates solid base defenses the whole way. Not counting towers, my most vulnerable stage in the game is at the end of tier 1 and the very beginning of tier 2, when all I have to work with are some ghouls and fiends, and I'm working on getting my temple up so I can start work on necromancers.
Gold hacking or Expanding. Most players expand. Nightelves and Humans, I've heard, have an advantage over the other races when it comes to fast expansions.
Ghouls have 340 HP. The lowest health pool of any Tier 1 unit in the game. Ghouls have 13 avg attack power to begin with, Huntresses have 17 avg, and a short range, and the glaives have a bounce effect. Fiends have 550 HP, which is respectable and very close to the Hunts' HP, and their avg attack PER HIT is 28.5 (all these figures are with no upgrades, which is to be expected in a rush situation). That number looks dastardly, but Fiends attack very, very slowly to compensate for it. Archers have an attack rate of 1.5, Hunts have 1.8, and Fiends have 2. That doesn't seem like a large difference, and on paper it's not, but the damage fiends deal does not apply until their attack's animation (a bundle of insects slowly drifting towards the target) reaches the target. The damage may be higher per hit, but Fiends are on par with protoss dragoons when it comes to their attack speed making up for the damage per hit. As someone who uses fiends a lot and has tried to use fiends as the primary damage dealers in my force several times, I will tell you that their damage output is unimpressive. When you are getting rushed, you need something with a little more kick than bugs fluttering around at a leisurely pace. Fiends' armor type is also Medium, which is exactly as vulnerable to Hunts' Normal attack (150%) as the Hunts Unarmored type is to Piercing damage (150%).|||Personally, I love harassing an undead. Most of them go late hero, and almost everyone goes DK. Both of these things work out to your favor. On a harass, try to find that sweet spot where can hit either his ghouls or his acos without getting hit yourself by a tower (almost every undead leaves a spot like this). Find that spot, abuse it. Personally I got kotg first, I entangle what I can and try to kill as much as possible before his DK comes around, all while remaining out of the range of his towers.
Once his DK is out, I stay on the harass until its no longer safe to do so (IE I wont risk losing a hunt or my keeper). Even if you are making him coil his units its still a win for you, since he no longer has the mana. Once you leave, head back to your base for an instant heal and mana replenish, grab hunts from your dual AoWs, head back and own. You should have enough entangle to pick off 3 fiends, he will probably only have enough mana to heal one.
So, keep the pressure on, dont give him time to heal. if he towers himself in, get a couple listas. As far as what to tech to, thats a matter of personal opinion. I like going master DoTTs and chims, but thats just me.|||Quote:
A good ANY player will not let me get Frosties. I struggle to tech to them. My opponents try to push me all the time. That's why I've adapted a build order that incorporates solid base defenses the whole way. Not counting towers, my most vulnerable stage in the game is at the end of tier 1 and the very beginning of tier 2, when all I have to work with are some ghouls and fiends, and I'm working on getting my temple up so I can start work on necromancers.
Gold hacking or Expanding. Most players expand. Nightelves and Humans, I've heard, have an advantage over the other races when it comes to fast expansions.
Ghouls have 340 HP. The lowest health pool of any Tier 1 unit in the game. Ghouls have 13 avg attack power to begin with, Huntresses have 17 avg, and a short range, and the glaives have a bounce effect. Fiends have 550 HP, which is respectable and very close to the Hunts' HP, and their avg attack PER HIT is 28.5 (all these figures are with no upgrades, which is to be expected in a rush situation). That number looks dastardly, but Fiends attack very, very slowly to compensate for it. Archers have an attack rate of 1.5, Hunts have 1.8, and Fiends have 2. That doesn't seem like a large difference, and on paper it's not, but the damage fiends deal does not apply until their attack's animation (a bundle of insects slowly drifting towards the target) reaches the target. The damage may be higher per hit, but Fiends are on par with protoss dragoons when it comes to their attack speed making up for the damage per hit. As someone who uses fiends a lot and has tried to use fiends as the primary damage dealers in my force several times, I will tell you that their damage output is unimpressive. When you are getting rushed, you need something with a little more kick than bugs fluttering around at a leisurely pace. Fiends' armor type is also Medium, which is exactly as vulnerable to Hunts' Normal attack (150%) as the Hunts Unarmored type is to Piercing damage (150%).
Too bad NE can't heal the hunts while I will heal my fiends with the DK. GG Hunts.|||I used to use the DK a lot but I got sick of him being incapable of taking the pain that heroes tend to recieve on a regular basis. Nowadays I either grab the Crypt Lord or the Panderan depending on my mood.|||Dude RotG, no offense but YOU have some idiotic suggestions. k, here goes:
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1) Yes, you can effectively hold a fight AT their base. Nightelves have RANGED SIEGE UNITS at TIER 1. That is insane, and allows you to play tower tag with them before they have an army that can stand up to your hunts in the field.
if your getting ballista, you definetely wont have so many hunts, which means that the ud, will have enough time to get enough fiends.
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2) No, do not try to expand and play around the map as if you own it just because they're turtling. That is how I win all my victories. While you think you have a brand spanking new expo about to earn you some grand wealth, my shade has informed me that you had an expansion in the works before you even finished building the Tree of Life. My other shade who is following your army will tell me the most opportune time to bring my army out and slam the door shut on your expo, and then I'll run right back to my base again. Don't try to expo again at a different gold mine. My expo shade is patrolling every gold mine on the map. You will be found no matter what.
Ever heard of dust? Many nelfs tech very early in the game, before shades are around, and the min he sees you turtling he'll get an expo/or creep the map. Dont you think i have my scouts too? At the worse, ill TP to my expo if you attack it, and you'll be forced to TP/fight/or run. With dyrads, SS around running isnt a good option. Even if you do succeed to take out my expos and escape unscathed, I can scout if you have expos too and btw, Im CREEPING THE WHOLE TIME. what are you doing? turtling in your base?
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3) Do not target Fiends first. Target CASTERS first. Fiends I couldn't give less of a crap about. I don't use them for damage, I use them for web! My Frost Wyrms do the damage. My Skeletal Minions do the damage. My fiends just bring fliers to the ground so I don't have to research skeletal mages.
Lol wtf? Fiends dont do damage? are you insane? A group of fiends can usually bring a grunt in red/yellow health from one round of FF. They do insane damage per hit, and are therefore ideal for hit and run, especially with dk aura. Web has got to be THE WORST anti air ability in the game. Short range, screws up what the fiends are attacking, etc. If you dont believe me, I'd love to mass wyverns vs your mass fiends and we'll see who wins. Ud's complain about mass air (especially from orc) all the time. Ud has a heck of a hard time countering air (at least against orc's air as i know it).
4) Speaking of Fiends, do NOT use hippos. They will be idling for most of the fight while I laugh and laugh and laugh at their webbed attempt to attack my air.
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In tier one, you can rush with hunts (not archers, just go clear hunts; it's not like I'm going to have any air in tier 1) and glaive throwers. No tier 1 force can stand up to a fair number of hunts out of tower fire, and glaives give you that opportunity to bypass tower fire while ripping the base apart.
hit and run would own you. Any good ud player knows how to hit and run. thats what fiends are built for. with high one hit damage and with nerub tower and Frost nova, your screwed as I'll just keep running behind towers or kill your slowed hunts.
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After tier one, get dryads. Dryads are the number one queens of warcraft 3 imbalance. Magic immunity, fast movement speed, ranged attacks, slow poison, dispel, 145 gold cost so they can be massed easily, bleh bleh bleh. What to use with the dryads? I don't care. The more dryads you use, the worse shape I'm in. At that point you don't even have to worry about frost wyrms at all and you can target the casters first, then the fiends, then whatever. And since they're ranged, you can focus fire. If skellies or anything else DO pop up, dispel them.
um fiends >>> dyrads. Coil >>> dyrad FF. Warden around? Orb + fiend FF and nova = gg.
Although I'd like to see UD casters used more often, most UD's dont go casters b/c they dont need them. Unless you're saying we should FF destros first ("target the casters first") which in that case is really plain stupid.
What dyrads dispell skellies? Thats like saying: "use shamans do dispell skelllies". costs too much mana and is better against high HP summons, ie: WE's, bears, etc.
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Maybe use a couple Talons with dryads? Cyclone the enemies you don't want to deal with while you focus fire the remaining enemies? Bears are nice meatshields and all but wyrms will tear into them and so will destros. Also bears are very expensive. There's always an easier, less expensive way.
going casters vs ud is ******ed. Destros eat any sort of caster for breakfast including all their spells. Cyclone <<< devour magic.
And Wyrm cost >>> Bear cost. gg.
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Ghouls have 340 HP. The lowest health pool of any Tier 1 unit in the game. Ghouls have 13 avg attack power to begin with, Huntresses have 17 avg, and a short range, and the glaives have a bounce effect. Fiends have 550 HP, which is respectable and very close to the Hunts' HP, and their avg attack PER HIT is 28.5 (all these figures are with no upgrades, which is to be expected in a rush situation). That number looks dastardly, but Fiends attack very, very slowly to compensate for it. Archers have an attack rate of 1.5, Hunts have 1.8, and Fiends have 2. That doesn't seem like a large difference, and on paper it's not, but the damage fiends deal does not apply until their attack's animation (a bundle of insects slowly drifting towards the target) reaches the target. The damage may be higher per hit, but Fiends are on par with protoss dragoons when it comes to their attack speed making up for the damage per hit. As someone who uses fiends a lot and has tried to use fiends as the primary damage dealers in my force several times, I will tell you that their damage output is unimpressive. When you are getting rushed, you need something with a little more kick than bugs fluttering around at a leisurely pace. Fiends' armor type is also Medium, which is exactly as vulnerable to Hunts' Normal attack (150%) as the Hunts Unarmored type is to Piercing damage (150%).
OMG wtf? Ghoul damage is higher than hunt damage if you exclude bounce damage. Look at attack rate of ghouls. with aura and ghoul frenzy, Ghouls have extreme damage. You obviously dont know what you're talking about. When any hero gets surrounded by ghouls he's screwed in seconds. With orb, just press ALT QQ to end your misery.
Fiend dmge unimpressive? As i said before, you're mistaken. 2 seconds is nothing. With dk aura, fiends attack FAST. they have huge dmge and with orb and nova around fiend ff is just deadly. Trust me, I know this. Grunts go down in seconds to fiend FF. I always die b/c his fiend army hit and runs the **** out of me while I get nova'ed. Unless I get raiders, I have to stay away from him early game as dk/fiends >>> fs/grunts or bm/grunts. IMO.
What a lame excuse, saying the attack animation of fiends looks ***. Well guess what? I think hunts look stupid. gg.
Even though fiends take extra damage, coil usually negates that.
thats it for now ~.~ Dont take anything personal ;o|||Since arguments are beginning to get recycled here, I'm not going to go into another long-winded post, as I'm sure by now you guys are sick of those. I'll let some replays do the talking.
Orc Rush with BM followed by several pushes. Wyverns and Bat Riders (that would be the light air that undead apparently have problems with) were involved in the later stages of the game:
http://files.filefront.com/How_To_St.../fileinfo.html
Tower tag with another Orc. Many battles, good targetting practices from my enemy, an overall fun and tense game for me. I lost patience and wiped both of our armies out at one point, which was unwise:
http://files.filefront.com/Great_Mat.../fileinfo.html
Two replays of UD mirror. Competition over corpses was involved. The first replay is not very interesting except for the ridiculous number of necromancers seen in it, the second is much better:
http://files.filefront.com/Corpse_Co.../fileinfo.html
http://files.filefront.com/Corpse_Co.../fileinfo.html
A sloppy match against a NE. Except for the half-assed attack on their base and the lack of dryads/bears, this is my typical match against NE:
http://files.filefront.com/How_Did_I.../fileinfo.html
Another very atypical NE matchup. A tower/Hunt rush attempt. Were he to use glaives instead of towers, he would have done much better:
http://files.filefront.com/A_Lesson_.../fileinfo.html
Sometimes players concentrate too hard on expanding early. In this game, I did not bother to wait for Frost Wyrms before attacking. Admittedly, my enemy did not put up much of a fight:
http://files.filefront.com/Dont_Expo.../fileinfo.html
Another match against HU. One of the matches in which I think I did not attack soon enough, and allowed my opponent to become too strong before disrupting him. Interestingly, though he had priests with Dispel, he never used it:
http://files.filefront.com/Mass_Rifl.../fileinfo.html
I'm sorry about the way I started off my first post in this thread. It was rude and uncalled for. I understand why you guys are angry at me but try to understand that I do not pull my suggestions and strategies out of my ass. I'm not a fan of theorycraft.|||Actually, I'm not angry at you at all any more. You seem to be the nicest newcomer to this forum in a long time. I think your strats wouldn't really work against good players, but I'll check out your replays when (if) I have time this weekend. Admittedly, you do somehow have 59%, but to be honest, ~60% at Azeroth equals ~50% at Northrend (where I play). Anyways, I'll try to watch some replays.
I havn't got time for any long post either, what I actually wanted to say is that if you do use the necro/wyrm combo, cast unholy frenzy (or whatever the name of the second spell is, not sure as noone uses it normally) on your wyrms, it will make them way better.
Peace.|||Is it just me or judging by the replays, only two or three of the replays are NEvUD? My reading comprehension must suck because I thought we were talking about NEvUD.|||Yes. Sorry about hijacking the topic. I was just trying to make sure I covered my bases with two decent replays for every racial matchup I could, to avoid lengthening the argument. If I left room open for someone to say "That wouldn't work well against <insert race>" I would practically be asking for it.|||Quote:
Admittedly, you do somehow have 59%, but to be honest, ~60% at Azeroth equals ~50% at Northrend (where the best players play ). Anyways, I'll try to watch some replays.
Peace.
Actually, it's more like around 35-40% on Northrend.
EDIT: Nvm, for him it's 20-30% as the average APM in the replays posted is 25.|||I watched the one versus Don-Nanosh (UD) on LT. Neither of you played well~~
- It hurt my eyes to see you both standing around idling... If you had creeped your CL up you would have had a much easier time...
- Your towers, if you insist on getting them, came too late to stop a fast rush. And UD only needs 1-2 towers anyway due to their imba base.
- Your hero died way too often.
- Your opponent totally sucked and kept massing hunts the whole game, which is about as stupid as you can get.
If you want to get better, you're honestly going to have to start to creep, etc. Don't give up because we're all flaming your playstyle though, it's obviously normal that one starts badly and only gets better with time.
About the thread highjacking, who cares, it happens all the time and is now officialy allowed in the forum rules, so hell.
If you want, we can 1 on 1 sometime. At the moment, I'm mostly using pGs.RakkauS or upstarts.RaK, both at Northrend. I'm often afk, but if you whisper me I'll respond sooner or later.|||Quote:
- It hurt my eyes to see you both standing around idling... If you had creeped your CL up you would have had a much easier time...
Couldn't be sure whether it was safe to creep or not. That's how it is every game. As a matter of preference, I like to play conservatively and let my opponent show me what he's going to do. Recently I've fought an increasing number of early rushers and I'd rather miss out on a few levels than risk just barely being incapable of saving my base. If a rush puts any kind of serious damage on my base, it's as good as GG. Nothing I can rebuild even if I drive the rush off late can save me for the game. One more push and I'm gone.
I would rather take the gamble that my enemy is going to rush me and will be very good and dedicated at it. Maybe he'll rush me once and be driven off easily, or maybe he won't rush at all, but why count on anything but the most challenging scenario to happen?
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- Your towers, if you insist on getting them, came too late to stop a fast rush. And UD only needs 1-2 towers anyway due to their imba base.
The towers are not part of my main BO. Their construction time depends entirely on my enemy's actions. In this and every game, I do not tower before I needed to. That way, the gold goes into what it must go into at the right time.
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- Your hero died way too often.
Recently I make far more liberal use of TP scrolls than I did in that game. But for the most part, I try to count on my opponent focusing on my hero from the get go, and just try to manipulate that. I've had a great deal of battles that ended in me losing the CL and maybe a Frosty with the enemy army completely wiped out. On the economic level, that's a smashing success. It doesn't always work out that way, but I'm content with the way it works. Can't win them all.
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If you want, we can 1 on 1 sometime. At the moment, I'm mostly using pGs.RakkauS or upstarts.RaK, both at Northrend. I'm often afk, but if you whisper me I'll respond sooner or later.
Now that would be interesting. Problem is, you know everything there is to know about my BO. You know I depend heavily on shades, you know that I'm never going to attack your base, you know that I panic when my necromancers get targetted, you know what makes me tower and how much, you pretty much know everything right from the start. That would make things pretty rough for me. I kind of count on my enemy not knowing what my plan is until it's too late to change their entire fighting structure around to counter it (although sometimes I tell opponents "disenchant" or "dispel" right at the beginning of the match, just to see if they wind up doing it. Hasn't happened yet).|||Quote:
Actually, it's more like around 35-40% on Northrend.
EDIT: Nvm, for him it's 20-30% as the average APM in the replays posted is 25.
I took your advice and decided to work on my APM:
http://files.filefront.com/High_APM_.../fileinfo.html
I feel that my skill has improved at least tenfold. Thanks for the advice.|||You don't have to tp out, just pull your hero back when he's in red health. And if you're using him for mass tanking, get some heal pots.
I've only watched one of your reps, and pretty much all the stuff you mentioned I'd find out anyway by scouting, which any halfway decent player does. And if someone has necros, it's natural to use wisps or similar.. I honestly don't know why people don't do so on Nooberoth, even though you have rather good % and should thus be playing decent guys. Whatever. If you're interested, you can whisper me sometime.|||Quote:
I took your advice and decided to work on my APM:
http://files.filefront.com/High_APM_.../fileinfo.html
I feel that my skill has improved at least tenfold. Thanks for the advice.
lol, you spammed like crazy at the beginning of the game = 220 apm but the rest of the game was <35|||Now why the hell didn't I think of pots?
The world may never know.|||Quote:
lol, you spammed like crazy at the beginning of the game = 220 apm but the rest of the game was <35
...tastes like irony.|||haha thanks guys for the loads of helpful advice. however, i would ahve to disagree with rotg, as fiends are a hugh prob to the ne army given that hunts and dryads are unarmoured. i have probs facing feinds with support from say aboms and gargs, because fiends effectively close any open options i have for countering the aboms or gargs|||Lol, I could flame you to the hell rotg, but I won't since you are trying to, an, help.
But, for gods sake, if you don't know how to play stop doing such stupid suggestions...
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3) Do not target Fiends first. Target CASTERS first. Fiends I couldn't give less of a crap about. I don't use them for damage, I use them for web! My Frost Wyrms do the damage. My Skeletal Minions do the damage. My fiends just bring fliers to the ground so I don't have to research skeletal mages.
I read till there. Skeltal minions? Dispel? Frost wyrm? the must fucked unit ever. Lotas of gold, food, and wood, and it still is t3, to die in 5 secs in battles. Lol, fiends are useless?|||I can't remember the last time an Orc used Disenchant against me, or the last time I fought a HU who threw anything at me other than footies, rifles, and mortars. Everything in the game has a counter. What seperates theorycraft from warcraft is what people decide to use, and how far any given counter is away from their preplanned build order.
You're sorely underestimating the damage that a Frost Wyrm can absorb before going down. With a couple of armor upgrades, those things can soak damage for an uncomfortable amount of time, while spilling out nuke-comparable damage.
Didn't say Fiends were useless. Said I don't use them for damage. I could, but frost wyrms are much better at it. In fact, in terms of gold, they're cheaper than massed Fiends. For a group of Fiends to match the damage of a Frost Wyrm, I would need four of them per Wyrm. We could consider the cooldown and generously say three. 215 x 3 = 645. I think we can agree that 645 > 385. Not even taking Damage types into consideration. Magic damage is doubled against Heavy armor, and Wyrms can freeze towers with their attack. Yes, I typically do lose one Frost Wyrm even in battles that I win, but honestly if I don't have at least 385 gold to spare upon my decision to engage the enemy, I have bigger problems than that a Wyrm getting focus fired.
You say Frost Wyrms are ****ed, but that's only because of players' reactions to them. Players are so desperate to bring down Wyrms that they will even bypass Heroes to get to them. Nothing short of a Pally could resist that kind of dedication for very long. Given armor upgrades, however, Wyrms become very tough to bring down even in the face of focus fire. They'll still go down, just 30some% slower.
Now I admit my suggestions aren't very good for fighting the typical UD player, which I clearly am not. Most of my matchups on Azeroth are against orcs and nelves to begin with, but the few UD I run across tend to use Ghouls, Fiends, Gargs, and/or Abombs in large numbers, and never seem to use shades. It doesn't usually get more complicated than that, and that shouldn't be too tricky to deal with.|||Enough!
Choice of first hero: DH
Choice of second hero: Panda (for both) or PL (for fienders)
Items: AMP's, Health Pot's, and staves
Units:
If the enemy ghouls then go DH/archer and play somewhat defensive with hopefully good archer micro. Use AOW's if he decides to rush. Grab a panda with a wisp at the tavern and throw up two lores. Tech as fast as you can to tier 3 but don't forget a shop at tier 2 and constant imput of dryads. Once tier 3 hits, grab an orb for both your heroes (of course wait for cooldown), get a handful of bears, and attack. Have heroes focused on the gargs/destros while bears rip apart everything else.
If the enemy fiends then go DH/archer and tech fast as usual. You have an advantage when he has only 1-2 fiends out while you have 2-4 archers. You can easily DH harrass him hard and kill his shop. When you hit tier 2 grab a PL or Panda at the tavern. Throw up a lore and a wind (or two lores and a wind if you can afford it). Pump out dryads/dotts while teching to bears. Once you see destros come out, get hippos, bears, dryads, and dotts (mg's if you can afford it). But you say, "But won't fiends web the hippogriphs?" "Hippogriphs still do damage to air while webbed if their in range". And orbs on both heroes, the dryads focusing on destros etc...
But that's just what I do, it may or may not work for you.
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