, so I was hoping that somebody could help me with the finer points of it. Thanx.|||Which race specifically are you talking about? NE, O, HU, or maybe UD?|||I don't care which race. I always play random, but human or orc would be preferable.|||orc rush lol. just go farseer/wolves and piss them off or bm if you think you can handle it. Arcane or ud tower and you are dead tho.Human? am/water elemental and foots...|||ahhh rushing.. it is important and useful and thus, i do it in every game.i play NE, so first i will give u my 2cents' worth on rushing for nelves and humans and orcs as u wanted.
the general purpose of rushing is to either force a early victory or to kill of some of his units. if u rush with a hero alone, try to go for the workers. u shld be able to kill of 1 or 2 peasant, wisp, acolyte. if he is orc then there is some problems if he garrison his peons. whatever the case, u would have managed to disrupt and slow his resource harvesting process.
also when u rush, u can gain important information such as what hero he has chosen, what are his opening units and how many of them has he trained, as well as if he is teching. all 3 are of great importance to you with respect to your subsequent strategy and gameplay.
for human, it would be good to rush with an archmage, unless u are going for a quick expo. a MK rush would be unwise even with the support of footmen, for mk has a slow movespeed and he has no spells or abilities to kill units/workers save for his stormbolt, which u'd want to save for real battles. archmage rush would be characterized by the use of water elementals and footmen support.try to take down farms/burrows/wells/zigs or kill his workers. always target buldings under construction.
as for orc, the most common form of rushes would be those involving baldemaster and farseer. in orc hero rushes, you can use your blademaster to kill off your opponent's workers.. it's very effective. the farseer can do the same job ... not as effective though.. if your enemy is teching a hero with grunts push can finish him most of the time..
hope this helps|||^^Um, the first thing you are talking about is called harassing, and not "rushing with a single hero"
Also, you are saying that rushing is to find out what your opponent is up to. There is scouting for that, and you should know what hero the opponent gets whether you choose to rush or not.|||[lol]
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for mk has a slow movespeed and he has no spells or abilities to kill units/workers save for his stormbolt, which u'd want to save for real battles.
[/lol]
apart of thunderclap and bash...|||Unless you are Orc or Nightelf, I suggest you don't try to initiate a Rush.
Nightelves have Demon Hunter, Huntresses, and Glaive throwers all in Tier 1 which makes for a horribly effective rush. Huntresses tear everything apart in Tier 1 and thanks to Glaives, towers cannot stop you.
Orcs have Grunts, which are faster and stronger than Huntresses, and the Blademaster or Farseer are awesome at Rushing. Especially the Blademaster for harassing. There is ABSOLUTELY NO COUNTER to wind walk in Tier 1. You WILL kill at least one worker.
Humans and Undead are weaker for rushing, but stronger when defending against a rush, because of their towers which do not have any prerequisites. Two towers early on in the match will help tremendously when fighting off a rush, and will allow you to hold your base together with relatively weak forces, thus buying you time to make the decision to put a few more towers up if you know you're getting pushed, so you can continue to build and tech safely.
The worst thing you can do when someone us rushing/pushing you is to be cocky and take the risk of NOT putting up a couple of towers. It's only a matter of time and persistence before you lose that way.|||Quote:
There is ABSOLUTELY NO COUNTER to wind walk in Tier 1.
roflol lmao go away.
...
Im very kind theses days, so, nerub tower, dust of appearance, arcane tower...burrow if you picked anything non bm/fs/tc/sh/beastm/etc.
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Nightelves have Demon Hunter, Huntresses, and Glaive throwers all in Tier 1 which makes for a horribly effective rush.
Yeah you can have them really fast.|||Quote:
nerub tower, dust of appearance, arcane tower...burrow if you picked anything non bm/fs/tc/sh/beastm/etc.
While you were shopping for that dust (how you got past the creeps standing in front of the shop, well...maybe you're a BM too?), the BM was at your base ****** your workers. Frost towers don't stop the invisibility, he can just hit wind walk when he's ready to leave. Arcane towers can't do anything until he reveals himself, and even then it's not like it would make much of a difference (I know the mana is burning, he can escape without wind walk anyway if it gets that hairy) because after one or two peasents die, the call to arms has been made and he's on his way out anyway, or invisible again. It's not like the humans are going to have anything resembling an army anyway because they spent the time and resources on the towers.
Just because the theoretical counter is there and on paper doesn't mean it's in any way practical or effective.
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Yeah you can have them really fast.
Hunts and Glaives both have the same prerequisites. If you can rush with hunts, you can rush with glaives. Tower tag isn't hard to deal with when any race BUT NE does it, because at that point everyone has had the opportunity to be in tier 2 and pump out some casters to help make field fights manageable.|||Quote:
Unless you are Orc or Nightelf, I suggest you don't try to initiate a Rush.
Nightelves have Demon Hunter, Huntresses, and Glaive throwers all in Tier 1 which makes for a horribly effective rush. Huntresses tear everything apart in Tier 1 and thanks to Glaives, towers cannot stop you.
Orcs have Grunts, which are faster and stronger than Huntresses, and the Blademaster or Farseer are awesome at Rushing. Especially the Blademaster for harassing. There is ABSOLUTELY NO COUNTER to wind walk in Tier 1. You WILL kill at least one worker.
Humans and Undead are weaker for rushing, but stronger when defending against a rush, because of their towers which do not have any prerequisites. Two towers early on in the match will help tremendously when fighting off a rush, and will allow you to hold your base together with relatively weak forces, thus buying you time to make the decision to put a few more towers up if you know you're getting pushed, so you can continue to build and tech safely.
The worst thing you can do when someone us rushing/pushing you is to be cocky and take the risk of NOT putting up a couple of towers. It's only a matter of time and persistence before you lose that way.
Now look. I really controlled myself to not write this under your other post already, but this is too much. To be blunt: You suck. Sry, but honestly... Turtling > Creeping? Bears shouldn't be used? DotTs vs UD? Grunts are faster than hunts? Rushing not possible with human? Tower your base asap? You lose if you don't? Sry, all that and quite a lot more I've left out is pure trash. I really don't mind in general, but you shouldn't post stuff like that as if it were true, because people who are as new as yourself will think it's correct and be catapulted in the wrong direction.
I'm sorry that this sounds harsh. Again, I don't mind you posting or whatever, we were all new at some point, and I'm not pro myself, but I think you should restrict yourself to asking questions and not trying to answer stuff for a while... <3 :/|||Call it what you want. I'm not speaking from anything but my experiences. When those change, the content of my posts will. When I fail to suck up my pride and just spend the gold on a couple of towers when I see myself getting scouted, I lose. When I suck it up and dump the cash into the towers, I push back the rush, my teching is successful, and I win.
I mean if you want to call that trash, fine. If you win via different methods, fine. I'm just here to give and get feedback, not to be nice or mean.
An exception was the Talons thing. The point of that was comment was, via the wonderful device of exaggeration, to communicate dryads are very effective and that you can combine them with pretty much anything and do well. I've lost to bears/dryads before but then I've also won against bears/dryads too , and I would be lying if I said the presence of the bears didn't help that(heavy armor vs 100 avg magic splash damage, roar buffs that get eaten by destros).
Grunts are faster than Hunts. I was not talking about movement speed, or I'd have specified it like I did when I spoke of the dryads. I am talking about the fact that you can begin producing them sooner.
I didn't say turtling > creeping, I said don't try to get comfy with the map as if you own it when your opponent turtles, and I was talking about an UD opponent. That's a reasonable claim to make, because UD can turtle and scout the entire map at the same time, thanks to shades.
But to be fair, my honest opinion is that creeping is overrated. I frequently jack players while they are creeping, and I frequently sigh at the replay watching them commit to creeping too hard and lose troops (losing a single troop to creeping is, compared to your opponent, a net loss in gold, and has set you on the path of losing the game at an economic level) while creeping. Sometimes, it's as if players no longer question WHY they creep but simply do it because there's this opinion that creeping is something you MUST do. I disagree. I think that when my army meets yours, your level 3-4 hero is not going to make the difference and win the fight against my level 1 hero, and my level 1 hero is going to quickly gain levels off of your troops anyway. Again, speaking from experience. I find creeping distracting and self-destructive; your army is not where it needs to be in relation to your ACTUAL opponent and you run the risk of wasting soldiers (gold).
I didn't say rushing was not possible with HU. I said they were weaker than NE and Orcs at doing it, which is true. HU towers are very frail and so are their footmen. I didn't say it couldn't be done, I simply suggested that it probably wouldn't be as easy as a NE or Orc rush. I've been tower rushed by HU before; it doesn't happen often but it happens, and as always I'm towered when I know I'm getting rushed, and HU towers go down fast. Actually the toughest HU rushes I've been faced with involved no towers at all. The gold was instead spent on extra footies and that, I found, was tougher to drive back than a couple footies with towers that couldn't be built within the firing range of my towers anyway.|||Quote:
Just because the theoretical counter is there and on paper doesn't mean it's in any way practical or effective.
Um, just for you information, Dust of Appearance which comes from Tomb of Relics + good micro > BM Harassment|||Why do you lose to rushes when you don't get towers..? 95% off all rushes can be warded off easily, which is why better players almost always harass or creep instead.
You may win with it, but if your stats are bad (I don't know about that, but judging from your strats I'd have to assume so) you play vs noob players, which makes it possible to win even with mass workers.
Obviously destros > bears. Which is why you get an orb for your dh and dryads. All the same, the way you said sth like "bears arent good" is stupid, as they are generally extremly good. Also, lots of UD players use goo/garg and not fiend dessy vs NE. At least you're talking about dessies now, and not.. er frosties and casters..
Grunt/hunt sounded like movement speed, but ok, production is ofc true.
You claimed that you can hide in your base, aka get few hero lvls and items, no gold from creeping, etc and get shades (which also costs gold), obviously you'll have towers (more gold), and then you want to try to stand up against my bigger army with better heroes? If you attack my expo, I tp. If you attack while it's being constructed, I realize you're using a shade and use dust on it, then start 3 expos at once so you can't intercept them all. If you hit n run, hi to entangle, shadowstrike, poison spears, ensnare, etc.
If you play people who lose units to creeps or lose units to creeps yourself.. erm. ouch. This should basically NEVER happen. Creepjacking can be avoided by having a unit scout or something, and if you dont exactly get jacked at a red spot or sth, you should normally be able to run away with (almost?) no losses. If you really are fuxed up, you can always tp.
A lvl 3-4 hero plus army will EASILY beat up your lvl 1 hero plus army if your opponent has any clue of what he's doing.
A foot rush (with defend coming up sometime) with WEs (or Lavas), supported by towers, is very deadly on small maps, especially vs NE. Footy push also regularly used vs orc to just run into their base and kick their burrows, ensuring that you are safe til you have sorcs.
I must say though, that you argued a lot better, calmer and with more reason than 95% of the newcomers here, even if I think that your arguments are crap. However, if you keep playing and get better, I'd probably enjoy seeing you around here.
:O
Edit: Do you mind telling me your bnet acc and realm or linking it? ~~|||Quote:
While you were shopping for that dust (how you got past the creeps standing in front of the shop, well...maybe you're a BM too?), the BM was at your base ****** your workers. Frost towers don't stop the invisibility, he can just hit wind walk when he's ready to leave.
NE get dust from their racial shop at tier 1.
A good undead player will seriously mess up a harassing bm, so, even if he does get a work, the damage done to the BM is more then worth it.|||Quote:
Why do you lose to rushes when you don't get towers..? 95% off all rushes can be warded off easily, which is why better players almost always harass or creep instead.
You may win with it, but if your stats are bad (I don't know about that, but judging from your strats I'd have to assume so) you play vs noob players, which makes it possible to win even with mass workers.
Obviously destros > bears. Which is why you get an orb for your dh and dryads. All the same, the way you said sth like "bears arent good" is stupid, as they are generally extremly good. Also, lots of UD players use goo/garg and not fiend dessy vs NE. At least you're talking about dessies now, and not.. er frosties and casters..
Grunt/hunt sounded like movement speed, but ok, production is ofc true.
You claimed that you can hide in your base, aka get few hero lvls and items, no gold from creeping, etc and get shades (which also costs gold), obviously you'll have towers (more gold), and then you want to try to stand up against my bigger army with better heroes? If you attack my expo, I tp. If you attack while it's being constructed, I realize you're using a shade and use dust on it, then start 3 expos at once so you can't intercept them all. If you hit n run, hi to entangle, shadowstrike, poison spears, ensnare, etc.
If you play people who lose units to creeps or lose units to creeps yourself.. erm. ouch. This should basically NEVER happen. Creepjacking can be avoided by having a unit scout or something, and if you dont exactly get jacked at a red spot or sth, you should normally be able to run away with (almost?) no losses. If you really are fuxed up, you can always tp.
A lvl 3-4 hero plus army will EASILY beat up your lvl 1 hero plus army if your opponent has any clue of what he's doing.
A foot rush (with defend coming up sometime) with WEs (or Lavas), supported by towers, is very deadly on small maps, especially vs NE. Footy push also regularly used vs orc to just run into their base and kick their burrows, ensuring that you are safe til you have sorcs.
I must say though, that you argued a lot better, calmer and with more reason than 95% of the newcomers here, even if I think that your arguments are crap. However, if you keep playing and get better, I'd probably enjoy seeing you around here.
:O
Edit: Do you mind telling me your bnet acc and realm or linking it? ~~
Rushes are very hard to fight off with ghouls. They are ridiculously weak. I sometimes wonder if Blizzard intended them as a joke. Rushes are easy to fight off, but it's BECAUSE of frost towers that they are. Could I respond to the attack with mass ghouls? Yes, but I could also respond with frost towers, and that way I won't have to take any ghouls off of lumber and if I got rushed, I'm probably going to get pushed again and again, in which case the towers are going to be a very big help in the game. No reason to stray farther from my build order than I have to in order to win.
You would be surprised at the effectiveness of Frosties and Necromancers. With a team of four fiends, four necromancers, three frost wyrms, and a Crypt Lord (yes, one control group; the necromancers are also in a seperate control group to make micro easier), most fights can be won using small hit and run tactics. Necromancers and Frost Wyrms go very well together, because Frost Wyrms make kills VERY quickly, and kills are what fuel the Necromancers' contribution to the fight. Fiends are there mostly for webbing purposes but also to have something on the ground between my enemy and my casters so that they aren't completely out in the open, and the frost wyrms are protected from light air units. This gives my enemies too many priority targets. As always, the hero is a priority target. The Frost wyrms are priority targets because of their damage output. If ignored, they will quickly destroy the army. The necromancers, as casters, are priority targets. If ignored, they will raise skeletons and turn the battle heavily in my favor. The truth is I want players to target my hero and frost wyrms. Within ten seconds, the wyrms will have done what they were there for (made kills happen quickly) and thus as the battle drags on, their purpose fades and gives way to the necromancers, who quickly flood the field with skellies. If my hero was targetted instead, I can use a TP scroll to quickly escape from the battle, allow his health to regen, and strike again. The first attack likely took out a couple of enemies so they'll be weaker when I strike again. Sometimes it's not even worth saving the hero if the enemy is being killed quickly enough that they will be wiped out or forced to run after his death.
I like that strategy because it is effective against simpler strategies but still has easily accessed, solid counters. Orcs can disenchant and Humans can Dispel. The Wyrms can be focused on and the necromancers can be ignored since their contribution can be purged from the field easily. I don't feel that such a counter is overpowering because I can always target the enemy casters to prevent dispels. I feel that it's pretty fair for both sides, assuming both sides invest in the appropriate units and not simply mass tier 1 units and tier 3 melee.
Anyway I'm glad that now we're getting into actual discussions of counters and the like here. You are right about the larger army and stronger hero. The thing is, I typically don't get out and fight until I have wyrms and necros. Patience is important, as I've painfully learned several times. Shades are a sacrificed acolyte. I use two. 150 gold. They are cheap, fast, and typically don't die, but are easily replaced if they do. I agree that towers are expensive (the cost stacks up really fast) which is why towering is the most variable part of my BO: it is entirely dependant on whether I feel I am going to get pushed. Towering is pretty much an interruption of my normal BO out of neccessity.
I have fought at expos that were TP'd to, they progress much like my normal fights except I typically have killed off some workers before the arrival and thus have some skeletons on my side already. My enemy arrives tightly packed and vulnerable to an Impale, as well as frosty splash damage. I have TP'd out of expo stomps before but I always come back. As a side note, I do not blindly attack-move into an expo position. I make sure to passively move behind the building and move my necros further behind the gold mine itself before attacking, in order to avoid giving the enemy an audible alert that I have begun my attack before it is fully under way. The reaction time is typically slow or nonexistant until I actually start attacking. That's to be expected. Players don't have their eyes glued to the minimap all the time. They focus on other things. It's not a lack of skill, it's just human flaw.
As for dust, I have never had a shade deliberately exposed. Ever. It never ceases to amaze me, actually. When my shades to get exposed, it's typically a side effect that the enemy clearly didn't expect. A sentinal being placed in a tree or something to that effect. But in the event that dust is used, the shade is on patrol and probably still making his way around the map. If you happen to reveal him at the right time, he is quickly replaced and, of course, ridiculously cheap.
Entangle cannot be spammed or used on air units. You can have a Fiend if you'd like. Necromancers are 145 gold apiece. Ensnare is typically used on frosties and I fully expect one or two to bite the dust if I engage an enemy who is at their preferred troop strength and I do not TP out. That does not bother me.
Creep jacking can be avoided with scouting, but while a player is fighting creeps, their concentration is not going to be on the map showing my colors coming into range. They tend not to react until I am on top of them. Admittedly, it is rare when I get the jump on someone in the middle of their fight with the creeps. Typically I arrive just after the fight ends, and they can respond to my attack rather quickly, although panicked. Without Unholy Aura, I have to work on my timing and map position when preparing to creep jack.
It's not that my enemies don't have a clue, it's that they have too many priority targets. If they focus on my hero, they give the wyrms free reign. If they focus on the wyrms they do okay for a little bit but repeated impales and a growing skeleton army turns the tables on them if they don't down the 1300some HP wyrms fast enough. It's not that they suck, it's that there's a food cap and they can't be doing everything at once.
I gotta admit, I don't really play small maps (2 player positions). Perhaps it's a bit cowardly on my part but I feel that if someone wants to rush me, they should have to find me first. That brings in the strategic decision of whether to scout with a worker and give away your intention to the enemy, or to hide your intention and search with your rush squad. Knowing exactly where your enemy is defeats the point of a hidden map, I think. That's just my opinion and Blizzard allows me to thumbs down a few maps so hey.
My account is RiseOfTheGeckos on Azeroth, if I'm not mistaken. I had an old account called RotG but I took a break from the game for a while and have since completely forgotten the password. Yeah.|||At the beggining of everygame I build a wall of towers around the perimiter of my town (between the lines of trees) about 5 or 5 turrets deep, it usually keeps a lot of it out but you should always have some workers on call to repair them between waves.|||Stop talkinf with him. Or he doesn't play TfT or jst suck big balls.|||Guys, you're starting to make me sad in the pants. :(|||Quote:
But to be fair, my honest opinion is that creeping is overrated. I frequently jack players while they are creeping, and I frequently sigh at the replay watching them commit to creeping too hard and lose troops (losing a single troop to creeping is, compared to your opponent, a net loss in gold, and has set you on the path of losing the game at an economic level) while creeping. Sometimes, it's as if players no longer question WHY they creep but simply do it because there's this opinion that creeping is something you MUST do. I disagree. I think that when my army meets yours, your level 3-4 hero is not going to make the difference and win the fight against my level 1 hero, and my level 1 hero is going to quickly gain levels off of your troops anyway. Again, speaking from experience. I find creeping distracting and self-destructive; your army is not where it needs to be in relation to your ACTUAL opponent and you run the risk of wasting soldiers (gold).
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creeping is essential, and to take advantage of this, pros are good at creep jacking because they can guess where u are creeping and by taking advantage of this, the can dmg u , kill a unit or force a tp. also, creeping gives u experience which u dismissed really quickly as smt unimportant, and it also give u items. a level 4 hero with items would definately boost his army's strength greatly as compared to a naked level 1 hero. if 2 armys with a level 4 hero and a level 1 hero clash, yr level 1 hero isnt going to level up that quickly because the power your opppenent's level 4 hero lends to his army will greatly reduce yr army's killing abilities. likely his army with a strong hero using high level spells and the benefits of items is going to destroy yr army b4 u can level up to 3. plus, if u frequently lose units while creeping then maybe there's smt lacking in your gameplay|||dun be too harsh on rotg. i admit his strats and great confidence does creep me out, but he's got credit for his great attitude and stuffs. haha|||Quote:
Guys, you're starting to make me sad in the pants. :(
<3 !|||If I'm not mistaken, this topic was for rush discussion, not a war of who has better strategies. Sorry if I sound arrogant in that, I just think it's childish to jump down someone's throat because you think they can't play. *shrug*
I personally have a rush strategy for every race. Human's the most difficult IMO. Footmen + Archmage (With elemental), after creeping one camp. Footmen are hard to hold on to. As Orc, Far Seer + whatever grunts you immediately have as soon as the FS comes out. As Ud, late altar, Death Knight + fiends as soon as you get the DK. Coil your fiends. I don't see it done enough in games I've watched. Lastly, my personal favorite and current race of choice, Night elf. Start off with your altar and well, then build an AoW immediately. I use Demon Hunter myself, as he makes a great hero killer. As soon as the DH comes out, go off and attack (You should have 2 archers by now) This attack WILL fail. You're just buying time until you get a second AoW built. Then pump out archers, and probably grab another mine. The NE strat is difficult to pull off, especially if you can't keep the archers from dying. Hold onto your units at all costs, no matter what the strat. In a rush, every unit counts. Don't even try to rush if you can't micro and keep your units alive. You'll lose faster than anything.|||Fiends have enough hp. Coild isn't really necessary here.|||It is if one's about to die. =p I usually end up in a prolonged situation. That kind of thing can take a toll on the fiends. Plus, early game generally I end up facing an opponent who has a unit ratio of about 2:1 on my fiends.|||probably a weak/cheap unit. you can't micro out/coil foots/archers/hhunters/ghouls (this one is kinda hard).|||Granted, but coil still comes in useful. I don't see people use it enough.|||What do you mean, you don't see it used? Um, if you are undead usually you HAVE to use coil at least once in the game.|||I haven't seen it used on fiends for healing in a long time. Actually, a game I watched a few days ago was the first I can remember (Though I admit my memory isn't great, and I know I've seen it done before that; I just can't specifically remember it. =p).|||Well, have you seen any replays of top UD players? Like, WE.IGE.Sweet or mTw.Protois for example? They use coild on fiends when they need to.
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