this is a tough one for me. In most orc mirrors...either both players rush really fast to get to kodos and witches; tech withouht building a tier 1 barracks and fs harass/creepjack; or just go standard hero+2 grunts. What strats are actually viable in the orc mirror? Generally in orc mirror, i go walkers and raiders with the fast tech to T2, but it is still one of my least favorite matchups. Any opinions on this, or experiences?
also...i think i should start hitting "log out" because whenver i come here it always says im logged in. makes it look like i just sit here all day. o_O|||In Orc mirror, go BM (and SH at t2) and go raider, wyv, kodo.|||On LT, MS, etc, you go BM SH grunt raider.
On any other map, you go FS FL and fasttech while pressuring with FS. If your opponent is getting grunts (which good opponents usually won't), you get straight mass kodos; if he's getting headis, you get headis and spirit walkers; if he's straight teching, you get headis and tower him.
Of course it all depends and can be changed, but that's the general idea.|||Quote:
On LT, MS, etc, you go BM SH grunt raider.
On any other map, you go FS FL and fasttech while pressuring with FS. If your opponent is getting grunts (which good opponents usually won't), you get straight mass kodos; if he's getting headis, you get headis and spirit walkers; if he's straight teching, you get headis and tower him.
Of course it all depends and can be changed, but that's the general idea.
lol, your sayin they wont get grunts? good players get grunts, noob players get grunts, every type of player gets grunts, show me a replay where a pro dont get a grunt unless its that slalom map or something then i'll believe you.|||In a mirror?|||yes in a mirror, if u were rushed u would be owned in 5 min. teching to teir 2 to get wyvs, and if u werent rushed if theres 3 minutes of creeping he'll get bats and blow your wyvs to shreds.|||http://wcreplays.com/replays.php?get=9524
Here's a pro replay for you..
SK.Fisch vs NiP-FarSeer on Twisted Meadows.
http://wcreplays.com/replays.php?get=9524
Headhunters, kodos, and spiritwalkers wins!!
http://wcreplays.com/replays.php?get=9252
4K.Grubby vs mTw-Davin
Grubby wins without any grunts ooomyyygoood!!
EDIT: NEVER GET WYVERNS IN MIRROR UNLESS YOU ARE BRAVE, GOSU, OR JUST PLAIN STUPID. They lose to hhs badly..|||Quote:
EDIT: NEVER GET WYVERNS IN MIRROR UNLESS YOU ARE BRAVE, GOSU, OR JUST PLAIN STUPID. They lose to hhs badly..
incorrect.
i kno from experience. headhunters are archers withouht elunes grace and hide. berserkers are archers withouht elunes grace, hide, and have even less hp(with zerk) and double the attack.
no one would say that archers>gargs/wyvs if elunes grace didnt exist.
therefore u shouldnt say hh>wyvs, cuz massed wyvs massed against my zerkers was a fiasco. i wish i woulda saved replay from yesterday so i could show u.|||Quote:
yes in a mirror, if u were rushed u would be owned in 5 min. teching to teir 2 to get wyvs, and if u werent rushed if theres 3 minutes of creeping he'll get bats and blow your wyvs to shreds.
plz stop talking. save everyone and just be quiet, because your grammar is the most ridiculous excuse for use of the English language. i have yet to see a majority of orc mirrors where both players aint teching as fast as possible. my clan head and one of the shamans were practically in a tech race, each pressuring wit heros till kodos. FINE if it makes u feel safer waste 580 gold on a barracks and 2 grunts. And let ur opp steal all the green creeps on ur side of the map and then they play a micro game with their hero around ur base. After they psyched u out with a leveled up FS...they come and kill u with the kodos and walkers they been teching while u were being ******ed with ur fs and 2 lowly grunts.
IP, thnx for the insight
forgive me for double post...wweorcster made me do it|||Quote:
incorrect.
i kno from experience. headhunters are archers withouht elunes grace and hide. berserkers are archers withouht elunes grace, hide, and have even less hp(with zerk) and double the attack.
no one would say that archers>gargs/wyvs if elunes grace didnt exist.
therefore u shouldnt say hh>wyvs, cuz massed wyvs massed against my zerkers was a fiasco. i wish i woulda saved replay from yesterday so i could show u.
I think he wanted to say bats.|||TT
Headhunters counter wyverns with a bit of micro, but bats just rip them apart. What I meant when I first mentioned them was that you should just add a few to the overall unit mix with max bats of course and some raiders/grunts.
You tell me to trust from your experience, but if you had the experience you imply that you do, you wouldn't have to ask this question in the first place. Now, when I say that wyverns lose terribly in orc mirror, my conclusion comes from the 400+ games I played with Orc over this summer with clanmates/clanwar matches and ladder.
Although Orc is not my main race(omg i don't have a main race tt), I am not afraid to say that from the first time I posted on these forums and when I played IP(Ud vs Ne lol i sucked so bad) my skill and understanding of the game increased beyond my original idea of how good someone could be at this game.|||i say i kno it from experience cuz i just experienced it 2 days ago =). I will tell you flat out that im a bad player. i wasnt trying to be rude. I didnt mean experience like "oh man i know all this and all that cuz im better than grubby" like wweorcster...i actually just played an orc mirror and i built hh/zerk to counter wyvs and got pwnd. and hey i agree bats do kill wyvs (most air for that matter).
and yes, i am here to try to gain more knowledge...cuz all my clan members are better than me because they know all the lil tweaks and details that im still unclear on. Look up clan han on lordaeron....all they recs (well most) are WAY superior to mine. Im just trying to catch up u kno? thnx to u and all who give real feedback.|||Quote:
plz stop talking. save everyone and just be quiet, because your grammar is the most ridiculous excuse for use of the English language. i have yet to see a majority of orc mirrors where both players aint teching as fast as possible. my clan head and one of the shamans were practically in a tech race, each pressuring wit heros till kodos. FINE if it makes u feel safer waste 580 gold on a barracks and 2 grunts. And let ur opp steal all the green creeps on ur side of the map and then they play a micro game with their hero around ur base. After they psyched u out with a leveled up FS...they come and kill u with the kodos and walkers they been teching while u were being ******ed with ur fs and 2 lowly grunts.
IP, thnx for the insight
forgive me for double post...wweorcster made me do it
Quote:
i say i kno it from experience cuz i just experienced it 2 days ago =). I will tell you flat out that im a bad player. i wasnt trying to be rude. I didnt mean experience like "oh man i know all this and all that cuz im better than grubby" like wweorcster...i actually just played an orc mirror and i built hh/zerk to counter wyvs and got pwnd. and hey i agree bats do kill wyvs (most air for that matter).
In bold are a few reasons why you shouldn't tell other people to work on their English, dumb****.|||Quote:
In bold are a few reasons why you shouldn't tell other people to work on their English, dumb****.
you got aconverge-avatar. Do you know the Doomriders?|||.Surreal is FFL btw :P
Wvyerns are worst option in mirror imo. I was once completely surprised by a bunch of wyverns when I attacked with grunt/raider/demo. I tp'ed out, started massing bats. I had 2 bats by the time he showed up at my base with 7 wyverns. I still won the game tho :O Just goes to show you how easily wyverns are countered.
Btw, is this HH/walker thing in mirror new? I haven't played ladder in ages, no time atm, but I remember mirror being grunt/raider/kodo or just grunt/kodo.|||At any rate, he should stop flaming starky coz he's the coolest newcomer in like a year or so.
Grunts stopped being used when people realized they're a freeloss as soon as the other guy has kodos.
And FBA, I'm flattered. ~:)
Edit: I really enjoyed Orc mirror, I'll try to write up a little more with some more detail this weekend or something, when I have a bit more time.|||wyverns also gives lotas of xp...My heroes went level 6 that fast wit single fiends/ghouls.|||Are peons taking damage from Acid Bomb while burrowed???
*this is meant as a serious question*|||Dont think so. same as wisps. But the status will continue after they leave the burrow|||Now, some of this stuff may be outdated, but the main idea still persists. People still get grunts, just usually not as many and fortunately there are easy counters to mass kodos. What I have noticed pros do on smaller maps like TS is BM+Grunts + Raider/Kodo + Spirit Walkers.
Orc vs Orc
Farseer/ Shadow Hunter/ Grunts/ Raiders/ Kodo Beasts:
One of the most useful heros in the Orc mirror is by far the Shadow Hunter. The reason is that his spells are all useful in an Orc mirror.
-- Healing Wave to heal low hp units.
-- Hex to trap/prevent units from escapin and allowing for easy focus fire as the unit cannot hit you back.
-- Ward (you get free towers for so little mana, you shouldn't be complaining).
--Get an early barracks since every single grunt does matter a lot in the early game of an orc mirror. The player who builds a late barracks tend to lose out to early pressure.
When to use what spell combo?
- Healing wave + ward for grunt + kodo
(since ward's piercing is good against kodo's armour)
- healing wave + hex for grunt + raider
(since ward's piercing is weak against raider's armour)
- ward + hex is for mass grunts
(since hex can help you to stop retreating units and wards are good)
- A lot of the pros use hex + wards. Perhaps the logic behind this is that these 2 skills are cheap (mana) yet effective. The Shadow Hunter is almost always able to cast serpent wards since they cost only 35 mana.
Grunts + Grunts > Grunts + Raiders > Grunts + Kodo > Grunts + Grunts
(that is if the raiders ensnare the kodobeasts to prevent them from devouring)
1) 4 peons to goldmine
2) 1 peon to build altar
3) 6th peon to build orc burrow
4) 7th peon to goldmine
5) 8th peon to build barracks
6) 9th-12th peons to harvest lumber
7) Build an orc burrow with 40 lumber
8) Train 2 grunts
9) Tech to tier 2
10) Build a beastiary and a warmill (you can choose not to if you are getting raiders but a warmill is needed to get demolishers and build defensive towers in case you get towered)
11) Summon a Shadow Hunter
I feel that you should always play defensively, and creep. This is because level 3 is very important for both your heroes, where you get level 2 wolves and level 2 wards. If both of you play defensively and creep, you should try to get a creepjack after your farseer reaches level 3. Scrolls of healing and protection are also very important (like the night elf mirror).
When you have a good advantage, you have two options to make the best use out of it. The first is to finish off your opponent. Send 3 peons to start towering outside your opponent's base. Do not build it too close or else your opponent would be able to destroy them. Try to do this when your opponent is creeping elsewhere, so that your towers go up without interference. Start getting demolishers so that you can hit his buildings while hiding behind the towers. You should also train kodo beasts instead of raiders, since you can devour and run behind the towers. If you are getting towered, start building defensive towers and get demolishers too. Use them to attack the towers or the opponent's demolishers. Do remember to repair them. The other way is to get an expansion and research upgrades/buy expensive items like scrolls with the additional gold. You might want to research pillage and use hit and run tactics on your opponent's base to get a little bit of resources and waste his gold (use a scroll of speed to run more quickly when he TPs home). As long as you have the hero advantage and the item advantage (scrolls), you should most probably win.
During early battles, try to kill the feral spirits since they give lots of xp in this patch. Of course, this will be at the expense of your farseer's health, so I suggest you get a voodoo lounge right after you tech so that you can heal up.
Fighting casters: Grunt raider kodo is definitely no match for tauren casters. You should either rush (with demolishers if he has towers or get casters too and expand).
--You should never use windriders, since orc has the best anti-air against low hitpoint air units. Using them would mean that you are plain stupid or brave or gosu (if you do have skill in using them after all).
-- As for map specifications, just creep with the same old creeping patterns, hang around the goblin merchant especially on Gnoll Wood to buy scrolls since there are 4 of them.
Other Alternatives
Blademaster/ Shadow Hunter / Tauren Chieftain / shamans / witch doctors / taurens/ spirit walkers:
Certain players are not used against fighting tauren casters. Also, controlling only one hero throughout the early stages of the game is even easier than DoTA. If your opponent tries to launch an early attack on you with demolishers, you can try to purge and hex and windwalk the Farseer to force a teleport. If he loses his hero but continues the invasion, then I suppose you should take down the demolishers (after all how many can he get?)
1) 4 peons to goldmine
2) 1 peon to build altar
3) 6th peon to build orc burrow
4) 7th peon to goldmine
5) 8th peon to build warmill
6) 9th-12th peons to harvest lumber
7) Build a voodoo lounge
7) Tech to tier 2
8) Build a watchtower and a burrow, followed by another tower and burrow
9) When your blademaster is out, buy 1 healing salve, 2 clarity potions and a scroll of speed
10) Run towards your opponent's base and prepare for a fight (windwalk to weaken the Farseer, then kill the Farseer with a scroll of speed if you have no more mana for windwalk).
11) At tier 2, build 2 spirit lodges and summon a Shadow Hunter (with healing wave + hex).
12) Tech to tier 3 for a Tauren Chieftain (War Stomp + Endurance, since Shockwave is ineffective on grunts) and taurens
13) Start training adept shamans and witch doctors. Start creeping and place a sentry ward at every location you creep, thus spamming the map with sentry wards. This is as good as a maphack (the best form of scouting in the whole of warcraft).
14) Get an orb of lightning for your Blademaster, to assist against any air menace (get a beastiary for bats if your opponent tries to get windriders and a kodo beast for the command aura). You can also get one for your Tauren Chieftain too.
15) Research the master upgrades for all the casters. When you have master walkers, you will never lose a tauren again.
16) During battle, autocast bloodlust, cast 3 statis traps and 3 healing wards (2 in front and 1 behind). Cast wand of lightning shield on the Blademaster and start attempting to slay the Farseer with windwalk + hex + warstomp. Cast spirit link on the heroes too. GG!
Beastmaster/Firelord with grunts + raiders:
The beastmaster is the good old anti-orc hero. Just use him with the skills quilbeast + hawk or bear + hawk and defeat your enemy with your powerful summons. Basically since you force the enemy to go casters and reduce the hp of his army, you use the mass summons strat against him, Goin summoned units to force the easily killable casters.|||Quote:
you got aconverge-avatar. Do you know the Doomriders?
I know of them, I haven't really listened to them, though.
@Sniper Lol. No.|||shouldnt it be more like:
1-altar
2-burrow
3-shop
4-tech
4.5-while teching get barracks and another burrow or 2
5-beastiary
6-lodge
i just dont think the early grunt is super imperative. just my opinion though. also, fs is better than sh becuase wolves pressure better than hexes and wards.|||Quote:
I know of them, I haven't really listened to them, though.
@Sniper Lol. No.
Check them out. Awesome band.|||Quote:
@Sniper Lol. No.
lol ;p|||haha surreal pawned your ass stark. and please give me the reply where i said i could beat grubby. i would like to see it since i cant remember saying it. and if they tech to teir 3 or even 2, your not gonna only have 2 grunts idiot, you might but most people will have much more.|||Quote:
your not gonna only have 2 grunts idiot, you might but most people will have much more.
laaaaawl, I rofl'd so hard.
GRUNTS. GET. EATEN. BY. KODOS.
If he has more than 2, it's all the better for me, as I'll be able to eat more, he'll have even less units, and it'll be an even easier win.
Again, you fail.|||haha IP pawned your ass orcster
or Onurthebrave style:
haha.IP.pawned.your.ass.orcster
choose which one you prefer, or go mass grunts in mirror. Or if that fails, go try to find a wisp on an FFA map. Or die. :D|||IP stop saying i fail when you keep failing at life, now go run away from home, be an emo cause nobody loves you. and i wasnt "pawned" because ZOMG kodos are unarmored, oh boy what a coincidence grunts do extra damage, grunts slaughter kodos like flies. you can move grunts from being eatan, you have grunts much quicker. grunts out run kodos.if 1 is eaten FF it and POOF theres my grunt back. they do like 20 friggin damage anyways. a teir 1 upgrade army of grunts kill kodos. you can double their number of grunts, still have time to tower up. so nope, your wrong again sniper(like always) IP didnt "pawn" me, i "pawned" him. and the grunt list of beating kodos go on and on and on....and on....and on
and on.|||hahahah RET4RD!!!
first of all grunts dont do extra damage to kodos, only piercing and siege does. or are you saying that grunts do piercing damage? LuL
Second of all, kodos have 1000 hp focusing them with grunts is no thx. You'd need raiders to help focus (ensnare + siege dmge).
Most people who mass kodos do a raxless tech. Theyll be getting kodos quite fast. In combination with hex and devour all your massed grunts during t1 are screwed. Seriously its no use talking to you, b/c you dont play the fuking game. You fail, as IP said, once again. gg.|||Quote:
IP stop saying i fail when you keep failing at life, now go run away from home, be an emo cause nobody loves you. and i wasnt "pawned" because ZOMG kodos are unarmored, oh boy what a coincidence grunts do extra damage, grunts slaughter kodos like flies. you can move grunts from being eatan, you have grunts much quicker. grunts out run kodos.if 1 is eaten FF it and POOF theres my grunt back. they do like 20 friggin damage anyways. a teir 1 upgrade army of grunts kill kodos. you can double their number of grunts, still have time to tower up. so nope, your wrong again sniper(like always) IP didnt "pawn" me, i "pawned" him. and the grunt list of beating kodos go on and on and on....and on....and on
and on.
Actually, I don't fail at life, I'm best in my class.
I'm not at my home, and won't be for another 9 months.
I am already emo, but people do love me.
It's pwned, not pawned, dumb****.
Grunts don't do extra damage, kodos have 1000 hp, there are wolves and lavaspawns blocking your meelee's way, kodos get speedscroll'd, you lose.
Go play the game before trying to sound clever and *surprise* failing.
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